[atreestump]

I just watched this video by a YouTuber Thom Avella. He’s in the feminist camp, usually I agree with him and find his stuff to be well presented, but this video has a few problems.

Germaine Greer a terf?  Misgendering someone (Caitlin Jenner) isn’t enough to qualify as a terf. As I understand her, she’s saying trans people don’t experience ‘womanhood’ in the same biological way, she’s not excluding them, prohibiting or inviting hatred. A terf is someone who sees trans people as non entities, as not even qualifying for human rights even though they identify as feminists. Greer still upholds equal rights and opportunities for trans people, which is not terf like. As for Dworkin, she’s not a swerf. Dworkin redefined sex workers as helpless, passive victims – whereas before they were viewed as fallen, evil women. Not the same as excluding them. In Sylvia Walbys ‘Theorising Patriarchy’ Radical Feminists actually have a spot on critique of sexual violence, every single one of their views are the ones that really gave the best explanations and solutions over dual systems, liberals and Marxists.

FYI, TERF = Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist and SWERF = Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTDHwWVOKF[/video]

[Descartes]

TERF and SWERF are oxymorons.

[atreestump]

Indeed, you can add the term for gender equality in a phrase that is exclusionary of any gender.

Sex work exclusion is a bit more understandable, but the idea is to not encourage stigma towards sex workers. On the other hand I don’t see how sex work is a liberation of women’s or men’s rights.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[notathoughtgiven]

I would not even consider Germaine Greer a TERF by any stretch of the imagination. In fact I have a lot of respect for her as a person. From what I have read of her works, she does not exclude or put down transgender women just that she doesn’t see them as women. Which is fair enough. She can have her opinion and I have mine. As long as we respect each others view then that is all that matters.

I think she is right in that I do not experience womanhood the same way biologically. That is a given. But that doesn’t mean I am not a woman, just experience it in a different way.

To me a TERF is a feminist that not only doesn’t see transgender women as women, but goes out of their way to bully, harass and put down transgender women. To convince by any means fair or foul that their view of themselves is wrong and should be excluded.

Well as far as sex work being liberating of women’s and men’s rights. It is more about being treated equally regardless if a person is or was a sex worker. That it liberates rights of the person by seeing it as a choice like any other line of work. That just because someone was or is a sex worker doesn’t mean anything more than that was their line of work. If it is seen that way then it is a choice and liberates the person to be who they are and not to hide or be ashamed that they where a sex worker.

[atreestump]

I would not even consider Germaine Greer a TERF by any stretch of the imagination.  In fact I have a lot of respect for her as a person.  From what I have read of her works, she does not exclude or put down transgender women just that she doesn’t see them as women.  Which is fair enough.  She can have her opinion and I have mine.  As long as we respect each others view then that is all that matters.

I agree, the key is respect. There are a lot of views that are intolerant, yet they can be conveyed in a different way.

I think she is right in that I do not experience womanhood the same way biologically.  That is a given.  But that doesn’t mean I am not a woman, just experience it in a different way.

It’s not so much the biology. I mean, some women can’t have children and some women don’t mensturate at all, are they still women? I think Greer is getting at cultural differences when talking about ‘woman’, as biology is only referring to that which is female sex.

There’s a great feminist channel called Go Fem Yourself, she is a buddy of mine. She made some great videos about rape culture, she like many women and young girls, was told they hadto stay sharp and watch out for rapists, even being told to wedge a key between her fingers to make a fist weapon to offer some defence against a sexual attack, should it occur. Now, this is going off into the topic of rape culture, which would be great for another thread, but the point relevant here is that men aren’t told to do those things for those reasons and so they have socially constructed differences. Another experience that is different is infantalisation.

A trans-person or homosexual person will probably find gender roles in society to be constricting, as do women and men, so we are not excluding trans people when we define woman and woman, it just means there is no binary, it’s a spectrum of differences.

What is not acceptable however, is to say they are not women and that we should prioritise women in a supremecist way, but again, as we both agree, Greer certainly isn’t doing that. I was dissapointed with this video by Thom Avella as it does reval a sensitive topic that is stalled by labels and cis-white men telling women what being a woman is and that they ought to be proud of it and wear it like a badge of honour.

To me a TERF is a feminist that not only doesn’t see transgender women as women, but goes out of their way to bully, harass and put down transgender women.  To convince by any means fair or foul that their view of themselves is wrong and should be excluded.

This is why it’s only a useful topical label, rather than an actual consistent position. If anyone bullies anyone for these reasons, they are not feminists anymore. It is anti-feminist.

Well as far as sex work being liberating of women’s and men’s rights.  It is more about being treated equally regardless if a person is or was a sex worker.  That it liberates rights of the person by seeing it as a choice like any other line of work.  That just because someone was or is a sex worker doesn’t mean anything more than that was their line of work.  If it is seen that way then it is a choice and liberates the person to be who they are and not to hide or be ashamed that they where a sex worker.

What I previously said was incomplete regarding this subject. While I don’t see sex work as something that should be encouraged, we should not exclude sex workers either. I have known quite a few sex workers personally and they only improved their lives once they were confident enough to ask for help. If a sex worker is raped for example, they will expect to be interrogated so harshly that they may say they were lying to avoid the traumatic experience of the legal process. Ths isn’t something that exclusively affects sex workers however, but the ideal of ‘the chaste woman’ is what perpetuates the myths within rape culture and further increases persecution of victims. They believe it is better to ‘not make a fuss’ as they don’t think any one will believe them. Even if they succeed with their accusations and get their attacker(s) convicted, they may still be rejected by society. Things have changed for the better, but these problems are still prevelant. This stigma and blame is what can lead women into sex work as they don’t value themselves as anything more than a sex object – dropping stigma can and does lead to women coming away from sex work and seeking alternative ways of life that they themselves consider worthy of their time and energy.

If a woman wants to be a sex worker because of a desire to do so, for sexual preference and not because of abusive relationships, there is no problem for me there either personally, I am tolertant toward the issue, that is to say, I am apathetic towards it. It doesn’t affect me in the slightest, so why should I care so much about what someon does with their body? Things are just not black and white.

The main reason I see it as a good thing is like you say, to remove stigma. It is an important part of tackling rape culture and I do advocate self determination. I think a thread on whether or not rights are a good idea or not should be opened, as you can give rights, but you can also take them away and this brings the entirety of the state into question.

We live in strange times. Authority is not regarded as absolute in any one partiocular area of knowledge or discourse – when that happens there can only be a natural progression toward anarchy, where rights become irrelevant.

[notathoughtgiven]

A trans-person or homosexual person will probably find gender roles in society to be constricting, as do women and men, so we are not excluding trans people when we define woman and woman, it just means there is no binary, it’s a spectrum of differences.

I think that is the subtle point that is often missed.  Especially with some trans women who want to be seen as the same as other women.  Well no we are not there are differences.  That is something we should acknowledge not act like we are all the same.  I think that is what Greer is trying to make the point.  To counter that movement that said all women are the same.  I can accept that a women with sex of a female would be different from a woman with a sex of a male.   Even within those divisions there is a spectrum of differences.    

What I previously said was incomplete regarding this subject. While I don’t see sex work as something that should be encouraged, we should not exclude sex workers either. I have known quite a few sex workers personally and they only improved their lives once they were confident enough to ask for help. If a sex worker is raped for example, they will expect to be interrogated so harshly that they may say they were lying to avoid the traumatic experience of the legal process. Ths isn’t something that exclusively affects sex workers however, but the ideal of ‘the chaste woman’ is what perpetuates the myths within rape culture and further increases persecution of victims. They believe it is better to ‘not make a fuss’ as they don’t think any one will believe them. Even if they succeed with their accusations and get their attacker(s) convicted, they may still be rejected by society. Things have changed for the better, but these problems are still prevelant. This stigma and blame is what can lead women into sex work as they don’t value themselves as anything more than a sex object – dropping stigma can and does lead to women coming away from sex work and seeking alternative ways of life that they themselves consider worthy of their time and energy.

If a woman wants to be a sex worker because of a desire to do so, for sexual preference and not because of abusive relationships, there is no problem for me there either personally, I am tolertant toward the issue, that is to say, I am apathetic towards it. It doesn’t affect me in the slightest, so why should I care so much about what someon does with their body? Things are just not black and white.

The main reason I see it as a good thing is like you say, to remove stigma. It is an important part of tackling rape culture and I do advocate self determination. I think a thread on whether or not rights are a good idea or not should be opened, as you can give rights, but you can also take them away and this brings the entirety of the state into question.

One of my very close friends was a sex worker.  She did it to earn a living like any other job.  She has nor regrets about doing it.  But what does bother her is how people react to her when they find out she was a sex worker.  How she will be seen professionally now that she is going to college and pursuing her dream.  It is like this big elephant that obscures people’s view of her as a person.  That she is no longer a person anymore but a sex worker.  That somehow she changes as a person the minute find that out about her.  When she hasn’t changed at all, just people’s perception of her has changed because of the stigma attached to being a sex worker.

Much in the same way that when people find out that I am transgender and identify as being a woman then I have somehow changed by knowing that information about me.  How some people will treat me different like I have changed by knowing that information.  Usually not in a good way.

When it feels that you have to hide some aspect of yourself to feel safe then it is repressive.  Just like my friend I want people to treat me the same regardless if they know me as a transgender or not.  That would be liberating because I no longer have to be careful about what information about me I reveal to other people.  I can just be myself.

I think what people need to realize is what they know about a person doesn’t change who they are.  Just like you are the same person regardless of what I know about you.  That I should treat you the same regardless of what I know about you.  That can be a hard thing to do when there is stigmas attached to certain things that a person could be in life.

I don’t know if I am coming across the right way.  This is one of those things that could be spun off into different threads talking about different ideas that come up with it.  But I think it could be summed by saying things are not black or white, but a whole spectrum of grays.   That can be hard to tell the difference between the shades.

[atreestump]

Just noticed Thom Avella has taken the video down, he must have had a change of mind. That’s good.

People love to blame and point the finger, this is stigma that many anti-feminists don’t seem to be able to comprehend as it includes a feeling of shame, instead of being objective about it and learning, they project their shame on to others.

[Whisper]

I think what people need to realize is what they know about a person doesn’t change who they are.  Just like you are the same person regardless of what I know about you.  That I should treat you the same regardless of what I know about you.  That can be a hard thing to do when there is stigmas attached to certain things that a person could be in life.

That is the absurd thing I’m wrestling with, what people think they know about me versus who I am. I need other people’s help and support in overcoming it as a trans woman, too. Femininity is ultimately empowering to me irregardless of how society treats me, though.

The way I feel as if I am a woman makes it so I desire to support cis women with issues concerning their own body. If I could experience womanhood in the same biological sense, I would want to. I want to be the literal physical essence of a woman in any conceivable sense similar to how I feel on the inside, not just what people think about women in general. I feel like identity isn’t fixed and that there is part of myself that is all women.

I am also tolerant towards sex workers. It makes sense as an option to make money for many trans women in the community, sadly.

I think a thread on whether or not rights are a good idea or not should be opened, as you can give rights, but you can also take them away and this brings the entirety of the state into question.

Good. Agreed.

[Socrates]

Top thread. I think the term ‘radical feminist’ should be replaced with female supremecist. Radical Feminism has contributed much to the backbone of Feminism.

[notathoughtgiven]

That is the absurd thing I’m wrestling with, what people think they know about me versus who I am. I need other people’s help and support in overcoming it as a trans woman, too.

It is like I am in a room and everyone is shouting at me. Telling me who I am. Drowning out the one voice that could really tell me. That is myself.

If anything it would be nice if those people where encouraging me to find out who I am or just be quiet so I could hear the voice better.

[atreestump]

A thread on Solitude would be great. That is a very interesting philosophical inquiry.

[Whisper]

A thread on Solitude would be great. That is a very interesting philosophical inquiry.

How so, specifically? I might want to discuss this.

[atreestump]

How so, specifically? I might want to discuss this.

Solitude is where Nietzsche ends up (well, not that Nietzsche has ‘ends’ as such) but he seems more like a weirdo aristocractic douche sometimes to be honest, he takes the ‘pathos of distance’ too far and doesn’t go any further as regards who is superior and who is inferior.

Foucault looks at the tools we need to eventually return from our solitude to rejoin ‘the herd’, being well aware of how exclusion eventually leads to confinement. This is where Kristeva come in too when she says ‘I stray in order to be’. Even though we refuse to assimiliate, we are excluded, yet enclosed at the same time.

Solitude is neccessary if one wants to become an individual, but we form our identity out of exclusion and rejection, rather than through inclusion and desire, we are not subjects, we are dejects.

[notathoughtgiven]

Solitude is neccessary if one wants to become an individual, but we form our identity out of exclusion and rejection, rather than through inclusion and desire, we are not subjects, we are dejects

That we need solitude to be ourselves, but too much is not good either. That in a way we have to find a balance between solitude and socialization?

[atreestump]

I opened up a thread about Solitude today. Let’s move the discussion over to that and try to keep this thread about Greer and feminism. 🙂

You can see the new post here: https://ontic-philosophy.com/Thread-Solitude

@”notathoughtgiven” What are your thoughts on Andrea Dworkin?

[Author]

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