[atreestump]

I live in the UK, which is a sort of socialist/capitalist mix, but over recent years, it has started to become more and more capitalist.

Work

As a child and in my teens, my father and the rest of my family for that matter, would drill the capitalist work ethic into me. I was taught very strict limitations of what I could and could not aspire to. Basically, everyone says ‘you will be a laborer forever’, so you better get a driving licence and whatever skills you need to get jobs in warehouses, or factories, joinery etc – manual labor is the pinnacle. Of course, one can become self-employed, but that doesn’t make you more independent really – you are still just a skilled laborer with no one to answer to and no safety net to fall back on.

I have worked at 300 different companies in my life, through agencies mostly. Agencies used to be in the background of the labor market, you could go to them when you wanted quick cash, but you wouldn’t normally go to them for your first port of call – you would always try and seek a full time job.

I’ve worked at some very corrupt places in my life – companies that bury asbestos underground, have terrible health and safety, lots of tell tales who want to get you fired and lots of bosses who really don’t give a shit about you. I’ve seen violence, been on the receiving end of violence from workers and bosses alike, but most of all, these companies were boring – so much so that I had to take drugs to have the will to go into work everyday.

When I decided I had had enough

I was working as a Pizza delivery driver with my own car and the wages were awful – there really wasn’t anything else to go for at the time and the job market was falling apart. I had a job as a security guard and a CCTV operator and both of those places had employees that tried time and time again to get me fired so they could have more work!

I quit my job as delivery driver and signed on to benefits after working on different jobs for 15 years – I decided enough is enough – lots of existential problems hit me hard, like ‘why am I paying for this home and car, is this all there is to life?’. I was in massive amounts of debt just trying to stay afloat and I had just got completely fed up, nothing ever seemed to change. I gave the car back to the loan company and I felt free for the first time in years.

It wasn’t until I hit rock bottom, my mother passed away and I got myself a criminal record that I finally started to calm down and rethink my course in life.

Progress? What a load of crap.

I always thought of my life as a working-towards-the-plateau – that at some point, I would find a job and make enough money, then things would just settle into a routine and I would then be allowed to explore what is more than the life of a skilled/unskilled laborer in this life, get my pension and die.

I realised that if I didn’t work, nothing changed anyway, I could do what I wanted to and it didn’t matter if society thought I was being lazy – they are all as unhappy as I am, so I rejected their ridiculous work ethics. I was so resentful of life and others, to the point where spite was the means of interaction – I wanted to destroy myself to get away from this stupid system that everyone says we MUST comply with, but why? It’s really stupid.

It was around this time that I found the occult and philosophy and saw just how envious people are, they frown upon reading and intelligence, as it’s something they can’t relate to, they can’t touch something about you all of a sudden, I was able to rise above them all and when I saw how petty and meaningless the life of the others was, I decided to create my own spaces to move in to.

I was not interested in jobs and the demands of the job center any more, just being near government officials was enough to make me feel ill. I eventually signed off and moved down to London with my partner and we live a very creative life, I write all the time, make videos, make music. I still work, but I am self-employed – you don’t have a choice in that in a captalist society of course.

The main thing is that work is no longer the most important thing to me in life, there is more you can do if you put your mind to it, but I can totally understand those who have hit rock bottom, as I have been there – I don’t blame them, it’s the system we unconsciously uphold that is the problem.

[Kenneth]

At last I’m replying to your Post, Ontical!
So many thoughts ran through my head
and how similar your thoughts/life was
to my way of thinking as a young person.

I’ve a question for you. Taking in account
variables, which ‘ism’ favors the individual 
most as far as respecting a person and
the person’s right to choose and prosper?

A most interesting, and baffling to historians,
is the story of the S. Koreans from poverty
to now being the 11th richest economic 
country.
After 40 years of bullying by the Japanese,
it ended in 1945 but in 1948, it was decreed
North and South and was divided.
Now, both N. and S. had Communist leaders
BUT the Communist leader in the North got
miscued and thought his arrival to the South
would be welcomed with open arms, instead
the Korean War erupted.
The first President of S. Korea didn’t 
accomplish very much but the second one
was exceptional even though a Communist.
He was the Great Grandfather of the Leader
now ousted until proven guilty, by the way.
This 2nd leader appointed a committee of
men to come up with ideas for prosperity
of the country and because of the ‘wiggle
room’ in just ten years time, money just
wasn’t in the hands of a few but everyday 
people were prospering and it hasn’t stopped
yet.  Korean people rule and are respected
by the government.

So, it can happen but seldom so rare an
event where the Elite don’t have the citizenry
controlled and under their thumb.

But what ‘ism’ is more close to individual 
Freedom and Peace of Mind?

Thanx, Kenneth – dollar late, day short?!?  :rolleyes:

[thetrizzard]

I for one am totally proud of you brother…I was saddened when i heard of your descent into the murky world of heroin and crime not long after I’d moved out of the flat above you back in either 2006 or 2007….I know we had less contact after Alice was born, I do regret that and have sometimes thought that may have been a contributing factor…but even back then you stood out from the crowd you hung out with and were very much into your reading (something we shared and enjoyed together) so I simultaneously blame and thank Irvine Welsh a) for glamourising that culture into which you ventured and b) for giving you the template to transcend it (in the form of Renton) (so maybe unconsciously you knew this and had to play the character / archetype for a while).. we reconnected again just after your mum and my dad had passed, it was I feel a moment of synchronicity a time when I think you were ready for philosophy…looking back now….Nietzsche gave you the tools to start to reinvent yourself and Rubsy gave you the loving gestation space in which to transform (she is truly a blessing)….you’ve come a long way my friend, and the transformation continues, I love your enthusiasm for philosophy it has inspired me to return to the subject, to stay engaged and to keep reading, this is what I love about our friendship and although we now live in different cities I am grateful that we remain connected x

[atreestump]

I’ve a question for you. Taking in account
variables, which ‘ism’ favors the individual 
most as far as respecting a person and
the person’s right to choose and prosper?

Why have any ‘isms’ to begin with? I suggest you read my threads on capitalism, especially the parts about collective action problems which occur when we all follow our own self-interest – I don’t think self-interest should be at the center of making decisions and niether should a market. As regards choice and prosperity, this only works if you have some footing, otherwise the choices are not good enough.

A most interesting, and baffling to historians,
is the story of the S. Koreans from poverty
to now being the 11th richest economic 
country.

Not really baffling – the west poured money into their economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kia_Motors#History Capitalists may not appear to be ideologues, but it’s funny how they would pour lots of investment into S.Korea which is right next to a Communist country.

OECD listed several factors among the reasons for poverty in Korea. First, public social spending in South Korea is low. Social spending by the government in South Korea was 7.6% of GDP in 2007, compared to the OECD average of 19%. This can be explained by the Korean traditional reliance on family and the private sector to provide such services. Second, Korea’s dualistic labour market, in which a significant number of workers are hired only on temporary contracts with low wages and benefits, results in high inequality in wage income – so as soon as you are too old to contribute to the economy, you are someone else’s problem.

I simultaneously blame and thank Irvine Welsh a) for glamourising that culture into which you ventured and b) for giving you the template to transcend it (in the form of Renton) (so maybe unconsciously you knew this and had to play the character / archetype for a while)..

Haha, I think Welsh was important for me as he gave me a language to associate with the herd, I just didn’t understand the people on the estate before that and I felt like the estate was all there was to aspire to in my mid-twenties, so I had better learn to accomodate it and tolerate it. He'[s like a text book for chav relations! But yeah, in a way, getting on with such dullards leads to thier world of heroin and envy, but at least I had the most powerful discourse to get out when I hit the limit. There’s one line in ‘Porno’ when Renton is talking to Alison (the woman who lost the baby with Sick Boy); where he says she always had him sussed out as a ‘winner playing at being a loser’, which I always considered to be true for me.

I think you were ready for philosophy…looking back now….Nietzsche gave you the tools to start to reinvent yourself and Rubsy gave you the loving gestation space in which to transform (she is truly a blessing)….you’ve come a long way my friend, and the transformation continues, I love your enthusiasm for philosophy it has inspired me to return to the subject

We all need space and this is something capitalism does not offer, you need kindness and love from others for that and a society without insecurities and self-doubt, which capitalism breeds no end.

I’m glad we are on the same page and this is why this forum is important to me, so that we can connect with others who want to do better with their lives and learn what is beyond the veil.

[Socrates]

GDP is a measure of growth, but that’s it. It doesn’t tell you anything about inequality or earnings made unknown to the state. Poverty can be swept under the carpet with GDP figures, as it often is.

[Kenneth]

Something told me that is what you would say,
and I concur, why have ‘ism’ at all.
But as multiple thoughts fired off, it came out
from your perspective, which ‘ism’ is the least
harmful to a person.
But, on reflection I now see the complicated
depth of such a question — like doing a
comparative religion study to see which sect
Might be the least controlling while cloaked
with the self-righteous light of doing good.

I’m reading your collected series on Capitalism
and although I’ve reviewed Socialism and
Capitalism and Communism, etc., in the past
this new review of Capitalism enlightens even
more.
Yes, the change in Society will be a slow one
because progressed, enlightened mankind is
stilted and disillusioned by simple pleasures
as their top priority, the myopic view.

[atreestump]

Couldn’t have said it better @”Kenneth” – all of the economic systems have their flaws, maybe the very concept of economy is something we need to review and stop thinking of ourselves as the owners of the Earth, owning, buying and selling the world by dividing it up is something we should be able to overcome and grow out of.

[Serpius]

I live in the UK, which is a sort of socialist/capitalist mix, but over recent years, it has started to become more and more capitalist.

~~ Deleted for brevity ~~

The main thing is that work is no longer the most important thing to me in life, there is more you can do if you put your mind to it, but I can totally understand those who have hit rock bottom, as I have been there – I don’t blame them, it’s the system we unconsciously uphold that is the problem.

Well, I must say that I disagree with you on one point. Allow me to explain.

You could have easily been describing someone living in a communist country (Russia, China), or someone in a highly capitalist country (USA), or someone living in a highly socialist country (Sweden, Norway). 

If you had changed the title of this post to one of the above societies… you are bound to find a number of people such as yourself in those societies. 

The point I disagree with is blaming a type of economic society or a type of governmental society. That’s not truly where the problem lies.

The problem lies within the society itself… worldwide… regardless of which country you live in… regardless of which language you speak or what race you identify yourself with. 

It doesn’t matter!

I don’t blame my parents for a lot of the stuff that has happened to me over the years. 
They raised me the best way they knew how. 
No one gave my parents a book on how to properly raise a child in the society they lived in.

Same with me… no one gave me a book on how to raise both of my daughters, yet, both of them have done pretty well. 
Did they both lead perfect lives? Of course not! They made mistakes (financially and socially), but they survived and became better people for it.

I’ve seen many instances where a child who was born in poverty and violence grew up to be a productive member of society.
I’ve seen many instances where a child who was born with a silver spoon in their mouths who became a major drug dealer.

Bottom line?

It’s you as a person that dictates how your life will be and how you fit into an imperfect society.

Now… some of you may be wondering where I am at spiritually since I was mentioned in the original post.

I’m a Christian, but I’m one of those Christians who don’t beat people over their heads with my Bible. 
No, I take a different approach. I take opportunities as they arise around me.
Yet, I am not one of those TV evangelists. In fact, I HATE TV evangelists because in my opinion, all they want is your money.

No… I donate my money to a charitable cause where I can track my money. 
Yes, I do donate to my church, but it’s done in person and I know where the money goes. 

Final statement: I don’t blame society or the people who have been close to me in my life for how my life has turned out so far.
I only have myself to criticize or applaud my decisions and yet at the same time, I do accept whatever consequences of those decisions have on my life.

The way I see it this…

Don’t make things complicated! That does nothing for you or for the people around you.

I take the KISS concept (not the rock band)… Keep It Simple, Stupid.

[Whisper]

The point I disagree with is blaming a type of economic society or a type of governmental society. That’s not truly where the problem lies.

The problem lies within the society itself… worldwide… regardless of which country you live in… regardless of which language you speak or what race you identify yourself with. 

Especially since labor is fundamental regardless of what government type you have, in all honesty

If you had changed the title of this post to one of the above societies… you are bound to find a number of people such as yourself in those societies. 

The point I disagree with is blaming a type of economic society or a type of governmental society. That’s not truly where the problem lies.

 
My suffering lies in that I am restrained in what I can study for monetary purposes. I lack intellectual freedom when I slave away at attempting to be more qualified. I am on a track that I feel that I can’t get out of and the money will get pulled away from me if I don’t do well and stay in the program I’m in. Unlike Ontical, I’m not originating from the working class. I have heard many stories and I have firsthand experiences that confirm that there are casualties of capitalism, that of directly resulting poverty. But do any other type of thoughts or forms of life (methodical or not) resolve that would be the question I ask. Money does tie you down into modes of working that encourage substance abuse. I’m not arguing that means you are forced to take drugs, but I know someone who’s father had a work schedule of constant working for the sake of his family that did not permit practically any break. He had literally no option but to suffer although for a noble cause. It had a permanent toll on him.

Same with me… no one gave me a book on how to raise both of my daughters, yet, both of them have done pretty well. 
Did they both lead perfect lives? Of course not! They made mistakes (financially and socially), but they survived and became better people for it.

I’ve seen many instances where a child who was born in poverty and violence grew up to be a productive member of society.
I’ve seen many instances where a child who was born with a silver spoon in their mouths who became a major drug dealer.

Bottom line?

It’s you as a person that dictates how your life will be and how you fit into an imperfect society.

I have had to overcome the game of having a scapegoat too. I don’t rationalize my suffering in such a way either. I agree with you on this tidbit about individual responsibility. Ontical has actually pointed this out when he has talked about his life (on another medium, one of his youtube videos that no longer exists) before he discussed it additionally with respect to capitalism.

[Princess]

Sometimes the society is so imperfect it is impossible to be happy in, perhaps. Your experience does not mean others have any opportunities, period. Isolation can be geographical.

[atreestump]

The point I disagree with is blaming a type of economic society or a type of governmental society. That’s not truly where the problem lies.

It’s not just an economic system – a culture comes with it too.

The problem lies within the society itself… worldwide… regardless of which country you live in… regardless of which language you speak or what race you identify yourself with. 

It doesn’t matter!

Yes and those problems stem from economic issues for the most part, inequality and lack of solidarity, competitive ideologies and domination accompanied by exploitation. The point is, there is a problem and we can talk about it, we can understand it and figure out means to change it.

I don’t blame my parents for a lot of the stuff that has happened to me over the years. 
They raised me the best way they knew how. 
No one gave my parents a book on how to properly raise a child in the society they lived in.

I never blamed my parents – they incorporated the culture around them, just like you and I did. The point is that we are taught how markets works, how to buy and sell commodities, we are taught what property is and to respect authority – modern day consumers have to be trained. Capitalism has been a devastating success and it has changed drastically since my parents were younger in post-war society. Growth and progress were possible due to cheap petroleum and a Keynesian model, but that is on the way out and all we have left is a society full of debt.

Work ethics are not only taught by parents, they are enforced by all of those who occupy the society, which is why we can’t just look at capitalism (or scoailism, communism or whatever) as only an economic system – it is a culture and form of life.

It’s you as a person that dictates how your life will be and how you fit into an imperfect society.

All it takes, is one injury and sickness and I could be homeless. All it takes is for the social projects that provide cheap housing to decide they want to sell off those properties for profit and I will never be able to relax, retire or even live a life that is worth living – your choices are only as good as the choices that are available and possible. I consider myself part of the precariat class, it would take a matter of weeks for me to become destitute, me and many others.

The problem I have with capitalism is that it will put property law and profits before human beings. No one here is dreaming of perfection – or utopias (which means ‘nowhere’) – socialism, capitalism and communism all have their problems.

Final statement: I don’t blame society or the people who have been close to me in my life for how my life has turned out so far.

Again, it’s not to be thought of as blame, it’s an acknowledgment of how the system works and how it is a system of exploitation. My parents are in the same situation – we are all in the same boat. While some of us may live in relative comfort, there are others who are suffering, take those in producing countries for instance, while their ‘economies’ are doing well, the ones who are working here work in terrible conditions on low wages (around $1.76 per hour) so their governments can go to war with other countries, exploiting resources from countries with poor property law – war is a means of opening markets. Let’s not forget the trillions of dollars that was given to the banks for the bailout that crippled the world, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer.

I only have myself to criticize or applaud my decisions and yet at the same time, I do accept whatever consequences of those decisions have on my life.

I couldn’t agree more. Just remember that no man is an island however. This is actually the point of my post, no blame or acting like a victim, take control of your life and do the best you can do.

My point is if the state is going to leave everyone high and dry for profits, then it may as well not exist. The problem is enclosure, it’s all very well looking at the world as if it is a human being’s divine right to divide it up as property for a price, but eventually, there’s no where else to go – what then? Not only that, but capitalism offers no workable solution for climate change, which is something your children are going to have to face. The board game of Monopoly is a form of game theory in economics which addresses this problem of accumulation and enclosure – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George

Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

He makes some really good points that I think could work, a progressive taxation.

[kFoyauextlH]

It is imperative for the intellectuals and artists to avoid labor as much as possible which is not towards their own growth. To hell with society if it is living for nothing and unable to generate anything but utilities and services for the sake of utilities and services to be provided in some circular system which leads to no intellectual growth or freedom of thought and increased insight or enjoyment for individuals. A system which is forcing Whisper to do anything other than flourish and express is a death machine.
[hr]
If it weren’t for Serpius, we might all be rather like-minded. I think Serpius contributes the most to this website by bringing in the views of the common man. We should not work to change his views too quickly, nor are we likely to be able to, but should use them as a great counter-point to our own and as a means to examine a representative mind of the people.

If it is the people we are ever wishing to communicate with (and generally I wish never to know the people or them to know me) then a representation of their thinking processes is a definite boon to this website and should be encouraged and cultivated, so long as it is not allowed to fall into the usual thuggish suppression and insulting that “the people” tend towards and is kept mainly to this one user and their wonderful thoughts and demonstrations. When studying a bacteria for example, its best to keep the sample contained and limited and controlled.

This website should be a place where individuals are encouraged to very freely express themselves without much work going into suppression or conversion efforts until at least a good degree of the mentalities have been demonstrated and become recorded on the website.

The fault of Socialism and Communism, Guns, and just about every issue of debate are the people and almost always the people.

The best way to deal with the people is to enslave them just as one would a beast, so long as this enslavement does not cause the deterioration or loss of great minds. So then education is important, in order to try to cultivate the great minds and separate them from those best enslaved for their unwillingness to express themselves. That is the more lenient position as compared to killing them off as a major obstruction. There is in my view practically no chance of the same patterns not developing repeatedly. Life remains a struggle to survive and think and express and avoid the vile gaze of the people and the tyrrany of work and aimless selfless labor for the state or society.

The ideal state is a complete solitary unit, a singular immortal and utterly efficient person who has less needs and can focus on creation, a God in the thoughts of common people.

To become a God is the goal of all the wisest as much as possible. To become a God is a drive in all animals. To be well fed, safe, dominant, unchallenged and unthreatened, far from competition, with every whim and desire met preferably with ease and without pain or struggle or difficulty.

The life of man and animal and plant-kind is the furthest and most unlike God, the opposite, and objecting to the system is objecting to God and Nature and the Kings and the typical Order.

Those who do not reject the system and are not at war with it at least in their hearts are its helpers and our enemies so long as they support any efforts against our work and working to become those things I mentioned all animals wanting.
[hr]
My posts tend to skip the nitty gritty and go for grander underlying themes so they may seem lacking in particular nuanced discussions like tax plans and little bandages for a gaping wound or a severed head and a mindless abnormally living body that continues its writhing mindlessly. The best help isn’t in policy but in hacks and shortcuts and tricks to cheat the monster and live off the beast like a leech just trying to breathe another day to think just a little longer.

[Serpius]

The best way to deal with the people is to enslave them just as one would a beast, so long as this enslavement does not cause the deterioration or loss of great minds. So then education is important, in order to try to cultivate the great minds and separate them from those best enslaved for their unwillingness to express themselves. That is the more lenient position as compared to killing them off as a major obstruction. There is in my view practically no chance of the same patterns not developing repeatedly. Life remains a struggle to survive and think and express and avoid the vile gaze of the people and the tyrrany of work and aimless selfless labor for the state or society.

The ideal state is a complete solitary unit, a singular immortal and utterly efficient person who has less needs and can focus on creation, a God in the thoughts of common people.

“The best way to deal with the people is to enslave them just as one would a beast”

Seriously??

Wasn’t that already a tried method done in the 18th and 19th centuries in the Old and New Worlds?
Care to share with us how well that turned out for the slaves?
Would you like to share with us the facts on how many slaves were killed by their masters through disease or torture?

North Korea dictatorial government for all intents and purposes is doing the same thing to their own people and how is that working out for those people?

So your logic is tragically flawed and is in serious need of re-thinking of this whole approach.

[atreestump]

I think what @”kFoyauextlH” is saying is first and foremost – the artist and intellectual devalues and revalues what creates value in an economy, whereas the norm and those who do not question the norms, have expectations that fit with a model of labor as the only thing that creates value. I would point you all towards Hannah Arendt, who turns the economy upside down to place labor as the least valuable thing in society and she places art towards the top. She does this by turning back to Aristotle and explaining how ‘economy’ comes from the Greek word ‘oikos’, which was a word for the household management for a king and later Political Economies (Ricardo, Smith, Marx etc) would extend the ‘household’ to a country. Arendt is a ‘pre-modernist’.

Now his more controversial comment:

The fault of Socialism and Communism, Guns, and just about every issue of debate are the people and almost always the people.

The best way to deal with the people is to enslave them just as one would a beast, so long as this enslavement does not cause the deterioration or loss of great minds.

This is a solution that often comes up when coming from the Nietzschean perspective and Platonist perspective for that matter, that the ‘herd’ or the occupants of the cave, have no idea what a Good life consists of and think in concrete terms that lead to self-policing.

I suppose the question here that arises, as it always does in this sort of discussion, is how is it possible implement a society that relegates work in favor of personal pursuits of growth in the hope that giving people more freedom will lead to freedom for all? In some respects, most people don’t see ‘being controlled’ as control at all; they accept their fate and position in society. But I would argue that deep down, they feel bitter and resentful and over time, they will begin to erupt when they feel less able to express themselves.

Should we just run away and live how we want to? Can solitary living away from the herd lead to a return, or must it lead to a return to the herd?

[kFoyauextlH]

I am in Canada. What are some ways I can avoid working and make enough money to survive with a partner as you do and focus on creative things?

[Author]

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